“My mom would still be bugging me, like, ‘You need to go to college and get a real job.’ I’m in the van, getting baloney sandwiches on 100 bucks a night. And I’m 30!”: Bill Kelliher and Mark Morton on how Leviathan and Ashes of the Wake changed everything

Though they’re two very different bands – the former a precision thrash force with a penchant for groove, the latter a Southern-fried psych trip of percussive prog – both shot to prominence in the early ’00s while redefining the American metal landscape. Sure enough, they’ve been prolific vanguards for heavy music ever since.

This summer, they’re looking back to their gloriously pummeling past through the joint Ashes of Leviathan arena tour – a 20th-anniversary celebration of Lamb of God’s powerfully political Ashes of the Wake and Mastodon’s massive-sounding Moby-Dick tribute, Leviathan.

In true happenstance, both now-iconic albums managed to come out the same damn day: August 31, 2004. Lamb’s lead guitarist Mark Morton and Mastodon rhythm riffer Bill Kelliher explain, however, that their careers had been inextricably linked well before then.

It was in 1998, specifically, when Richmond, Virginia’s Burn the Priest – Morton’s proto-Lamb project – happened to crash into producer Steve Austin’s recording studio in Clinton, Massachusetts, to track their venomously grinding self-titled debut. Kelliher, a native of Rochester, New York, had also recently arrived in town to play bass in Austin’s noise-core group, Today Is the Day – which then also featured drummer (and fellow future Mastodonian) Brann Dailor.

Kelliher recalls Austin Enterprises being smooshed into an old building with “an antique store on one side and a fucking donut shop on the other.” Morton recalls Burn the Priest being supremely excited to be there, though the producer’s tiny working space got cozy, to say the least.

“We were all sleeping there because we didn’t have a budget to stay anywhere else,” Morton says of the heavy metal slumber party, both he and Kelliher noting that everyone got chummy over drinks once sessions wrapped for the day.

“I have a great picture of me, Brann and Mikey Brosnan – who had a label called Legion Records, and was putting out the Burn the Priest CD at the time – on the couch the week we were there.”

Kelliher continues: “That was our home. Brann slept on the couch; I slept on a little flip-and-fuck mattress. There was a tiny fridge. No shower. A dingy little bathroom. It was fun at the time… We had no idea what was coming down the pike.”

We were all sitting at the bar in a hotel in Belgium. Brann was out of his mind – we’d had a few drinks or whatever – and he was like, ‘Guys… I just read this book, Moby-Dick

It’d be a few years before the musicians met again, though they were on each other’s respective radars. Burn the Priest became Lamb of God in 2000, which is when they picked up Morton’s partner in crime, guitarist Willie Adler.

Kelliher caught wind of the name change, recalling seeing that his friends were “catapulting” into greater recognition following the release of 2000’s New American Gospel and 2003’s As the Palaces Burn – impressive, extreme-metal statements that that led to Lamb of God signing with major label Epic ahead of making Ashes of the Wake.

Kelliher was likewise on an incline. He and Dailor wound up in Savannah, Georgia, after leaving Today Is the Day in 2000, and it’s in the Peach State where they linked up with bassist Troy Sanders and wildcard chicken-picker Brent Hinds to form Mastodon.

While the sludge-chunkiness of 2002 debut album Remission set the stage for greatness, Dailor shuttled the band to new heights after proposing they base their progressively twisted sophomore collection around 19th-century American novelist Herman Melville’s most famous epic.

“We were all sitting at the bar in a hotel in Belgium,” Kelliher says of the conversation. “Brann was out of his mind – we’d had a few drinks or whatever – and he was like, ‘Guys… I just read this book, Moby-Dick, and I have all these crazy ideas for our next record.’ People started taking us seriously [once Leviathan came out].”

“I have always looked to Mastodon – and their really unbridled, unrestrained creative ambition – as a source of inspiration,” Morton says in a general tangent.

“I think I can say this… [but] from a distance, it sometimes looks uncomfortable for them, because there’s an identity push-and-pull. ‘Are we a metal band, or are we a doomy band, or are we this artsy Rush band?’ The answer is yes to all of those things. As a fan and as a friend, that sometimes looks a little restless [for them], which I think is good. Because if you’re not restless… then you’re stagnant.”

While set to dip into some summertime nostalgia, Mastodon and Lamb of God won’t be resting on their creative laurels for long. Both acts are in the primordial stages of making their next records (Mastodon last released Hushed and Grim in 2021; Lamb of God’s latest is 2022’s Omens).

Nevertheless, Kelliher and Morton got together with Guitar World to dish on legendary riffs, the sambuca and baloney sandwich days, and how both groups of heavy metal pirates are still journeying toward a great unknown.

The songs were getting more complex, more thought-out. We were getting more intricate with the note choices. And then we really felt connected to that Moby-Dick concept.

Looking back on the era, Bill, do you feel like Mastodon’s songwriting leveled up from Remission to meet Brann’s Moby-Dick concept?

Bill Kelliher: “The first two Mastodon records – Remission is the first full-length, but there was the Lifesblood EP before that – were kind of a mish-mash. Brent and Troy had their songs, me and Brann had our songs, and we kind of put them together. But by Leviathan, I felt like we started locking in together with the songwriting.

“And the songs were getting more complex, more thought-out. We were getting more intricate with the note choices. And then we really felt connected to that Moby-Dick concept. I felt like we were Captain Ahab in search of the white whale.

“I could totally relate to the story. It’s not about capturing the whale; it’s about the thrill of the hunt. And we were a bunch of dirty pirates! Our ship was this giant, stinky white van, and we went port to port to play our music. We were in search of whatever the white whale could be, metaphorically… It could be a success.”

Mark, how do you remember the transition for Lamb of God between As the Palaces Burn and Ashes of the Wake? Since there was only a year between those albums, were the Ashes songs already in the tank?

Mark Morton: “It was really terrifying, because we had just done Palaces, a record that happened naturally. We had time to write those songs in our practice space as ideas popped up.

“We got signed to Epic pretty shortly after Palaces dropped, which was life-changing. Epic doing what they do, they wanted a record. They had just invested in this extreme-metal band, the scene was bubbling up and becoming a thing…”

“So we had to turn around and go right back into writing. I remember being aware of how intense that situation was. It had this cloud of pressure about it. I’d just expended all of these creative ideas on this other album.

“What it taught me, though – and it’s something I hang onto today – is to trust your artistry and wherever that creative flow is coming from. Maybe don’t accept everything as good just because it’s coming to the surface, but when your intuition tells you something is valid, run with that. Don’t be scared to believe in the ideas you have. But I didn’t have the choice of overthinking anything… We had to run with the ideas that were coming. And that wound up becoming Ashes of the Wake.”

These records kick off with all-time bangers from both of you. Mark, Laid to Rest is one of the defining stomps of the Lamb of God catalog. What do you remember about putting it together?

Morton: “I don’t remember so much about putting it together, except that I had this riff rattling around in my head. And it turns out, part of what I was hearing was a song from Testament called Into the Pit, because the riff is remarkably similar. The song structure is very different and goes to different places, so it’s not a direct lift.

“But it makes sense, because Testament was a really huge influence for me. It’s rooted in my love for ’80s Bay Area thrash. I’ve definitely told Eric Peterson a time or two that I probably owe him dinner.”

Bill, Blood and Thunder is the beast that tees off Leviathan; it’s still a big part of your sets. That first percussive riff just pumps you the fuck up.

Kelliher: “That’s our Ace of Spades kind of song that we have to play every night, whether we want to or not. It’s interesting you ask about that riff, though. Brann came up with that. He doesn’t play guitar, and he’s about as good at guitar as I am on drums – which is to say, terrible – but he comes up with a lot of riffs, and puts them into my hands.

“The thing is, he thinks of rhythms differently than I would. He was playing the beat to it [after explaining the riff], but we kept getting off time. He was like, ‘No, dude, it doesn’t go ‘ban-na, ban-na, ban-na’ it goes ‘BANT, ban-na, ban-na.’ That simple little change… It was like learning new math.

“This was jagged, angular and weird, but all of a sudden it clicked. That song just exploded. It got onto Guitar Hero back in the day. It’s the very first song on Leviathan, [but] when we do our live shows it’s usually the last song, because it’s a headbanger and kind of our most popular song.”

What were either of you using on these records, gear-wise?

Kelliher: “I’d had two guitars stolen in 2003 over in Europe, so I had just bought an ’82 Les Paul custom Silverburst, which I still have. I used that for everything, because that’s the only guitar I had. I think Brent only had one guitar, his goldtop Les Paul. We were in Seattle at Studio Litho with [producer] Matt Bayless. For Blood and Thunder, I used my JCM800 2210, dual-channel, which I’d used since I was a kid.

“I also used Brent’s JMP to double the guitars. I had either an old-school BK Butler or Chandler tube driver, like the big wedge box. It’s not like today where I’ve got over 100 guitars, 50 amps, every pedal you can imagine and modelers. When I go into the studio now, it’s like I’m a kid in a candy store. It was much different back then.”

Morton: “I would have used a ’75 Les Paul goldtop that had been routed out for PAFs. I think I had a Seymour Duncan ’59 humbucker in the bridge, which is what I would’ve been using mostly. I also had a Jackson Swee-tone, which is a weird spin on a neck-through. Kind of a Dinky-shaped, two-humbucker thing. I played that for a lot of that era, too. Those would have been the two main guitars.

Honestly, I’ve never loved the guitar sound on that record. I liked the guitar sound going into Ashes of the Wake, but the guitar sound coming back when it was mixed and mastered…

“Amp-wise, it would have been a Boogie Mark IV, which I still use quite a bit, but [Ashes producer] Machine did a lot of re-amping on that record. Honestly, I’ve never loved the guitar sound on that record. I liked the guitar sound going into Ashes of the Wake, but the guitar sound coming back when it was mixed and mastered…

“I’m still not really a fan of it. It’s just not my sound. It’s kind of sandy and gritty. When I’m dialing in a tone, it’s more reflective of my personality on the guitar. A tighter gain structure. Not as grainy and sharp.”

Bill, did you and Brent catch the white whale on Leviathan, in terms of tone?

Kelliher: “I wasn’t unhappy with the guitar tone on the record. I think it’s fine… I have to agree with Mark, though. A lot of times when I go into the studio where someone else is in control, I’m never happy with how the guitars sound when they come out of the speakers. Like, ‘That’s not my tone. Go put your ear up to the fucking amp.’ I record bands all the time, and I don’t run it through anything except a microphone; that’s when it sounds the best.”

Morton: “The thing to consider is that any competent producer can come in and capture my tone just like I like it, but a producer [has] other agendas to consider. They have to carve out space for the other guitar player or the bass player. There is a science toward making space with frequencies in the mix… sometimes that can stomp on what I might think is the perfect guitar sound.

There is a science toward making space with frequencies in the mix… sometimes that can stomp on what I might think is the perfect guitar sound

“Machine wasn’t super familiar with the band, so I think there’s an aspect of trying to get the best overall result in the most efficient timeframe. What inevitably happens is a lot of producers already know how they’re going to wrap the signal paths, because they have a tried-and-true system.

“That winds up changing the personality and the sound [of the band]. I’m not attacking Machine – we went on to work with him again [on 2006’s Sacrament – ed.] and rectified a lot of those issues – but I think a lot of times you’re on a strict schedule, and you’ve got to get this record done. Sometimes that winds up with guitar players like Bill and myself not being thrilled with the tone that wound up printing on the record.”

This might be a good point, Mark, to analyze the tone and feel of several different players on your record. How did you go about putting together Ashes of the Wake’s thrash-strumental title track, which ended up rolling out four distinct solos from you, Willie, Testament’s Alex Skolnick and Megadeth’s Chris Poland?

Morton: “We had kind of gotten away from the New American Gospel style of writing, which was just landscapes of riffs stitched together. By the time we’re at Ashes of the Wake, we’re considering the way a song moves – what’s the chorus; what’s the bridge; how are these things working together – from a succinct, listenability kind of approach. That particular song didn’t have a lot of that going on, though. [Laughs]

“Willie, my partner in the band, definitely has a less conventional approach to songwriting. He’s more like, ‘I don’t care what part it is that happens next.’ There’s a beauty to that, but sometimes it can be difficult to write lyrics to that. So that song had that feel to it – ‘Why don’t we just leave it instrumental?’ Then the idea was to put these solos on it. It was a nod to some of our influences. And having Chris Poland and Alex Skolnick on the same tune is cool!”

Was the idea of going toe-to-toe with your heroes intimidating?

Morton: “Probably! I remember feeling relieved that I got to go last, because then you kind of know what you’re up against. I’m not the most adept lead player. I’m a blues guitarist, really. I got a few licks… I’m pretty sure I worked them all into that solo.”

I never took any guitar lessons. I grew up on punk rock – Greg Ginn from Black Flag; Dead Kennedys – and they were sloppy. That fit my style

This is a tour where you’re playing the album front to back, which potentially opens up Ashes of the Wake to getting guest solos from Brent, Bill or even Kerry King, who’s opening a few dates. What’s everyone here thinking about that?

Morton: “It’s an open invitation to those guys, but my guess is they’ll be eating frozen yogurt or watching a movie [during our set].”

Kelliher: “Touring in your 50s, you’re getting on the bus and watching some Netflix.”

Morton: “Yeah!”

Kelliher: “I’m not much of a soloist either. I’ve been in bands where I was the only guitar player. I had to play solos, but I never took any guitar lessons. I grew up on punk rock – Greg Ginn from Black Flag; Dead Kennedys – and they were sloppy. That fit my style. When I solo, it’s simple, bluesy stuff. Less Kerry King. I can get up there and do a Chuck Berry solo in the middle of it, though… sure. [Laughs]”

Hearts Alive is one of Leviathan’s most complex pieces. It’s the weightiest song that the band had put together at that point – at nearly 14 minutes, it’s still the longest song in your catalog. What was it like writing that kind of an epic?

Kelliher: “Brent had found a book called something like 500 Guitar Chords and was learning all these different chords to put together in the opening riff. It was such a departure from a song like Blood and Thunder. They’re on opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of songwriting.

“With what Mark was saying earlier about Mastodon, we don’t really fit into one category. I love that about our band! Today we’re a metal band, tomorrow we’re a Southern rock band or a doom band. There are bluesy licks; there’s country licks, metal-ized; there’s punk rock riffs. It’s what keeps our heart beating.”

Brent’s solo on Hearts Alive is also one of Mastodon’s biggest….

Kelliher: “I don’t think there was much soloing on Remission. It’s a lot of rhythmic stuff; that’s kind of who we were, you know? I think [Hearts Alive] was a chance for him to open up, let loose, go crazy and show off his skills. And it was epic! He’s always great when he’s laying down his solos. They’re soulful. You can feel them. There are a lot of weird notes that he bends into, and it’s like, ‘Where are you going? Oh, there it is!’ He’s a unique player.”

Looking back at your first big summer tour together, are there any memories that stick out from the Unholy Alliance trip with Slayer in 2006?

Morton: “I’ve always felt a kinship with the Mastodon guys. The camps have always gotten along really well. Maybe Bill has more specific memories… I lost a lot of years starting around that era.”

Kelliher: “I don’t remember a lot of those days either. I used to drink quite heavily, which I stopped doing years ago. I just remember hanging out with the Slayer dudes and drinking a lot of ’buca with Kerry King. Just riding the wave, man, and having a good time with everybody. But honestly, my brain has been fried for so many years that I can’t remember specific things because it was mostly a blackout night every night. It’s much different these days!”

So, we have this Ashes of Leviathan tour celebrating these two monumental albums. What are the defining aspects of these records for you?

Morton: “It was a pivotal record for the band. For me, creatively, it gave me a little bit of confidence. As a songwriter, I was thrown into the fire because of the timing of it all. To see it connect the way it did, I was able to take a breath [afterwards] and say, ‘Alright, cool… now we get to do this again and we can take more time with it.’ We hit a stride around that point that we remained in for some time. In that sense, [Ashes of the Wake] was us reaching altitude.”

When we were in Rolling Stone for Leviathan and they were giving us accolades like, ‘There’s much more to these neanderthals than just sludge metal – they read books,’ it gave us some credibility

How did Leviathan change things for Mastodon, Bill?

Kelliher: “At the time I was in the middle of it, it was just a regular day, going out and playing those songs. But we were very proud of the record. My mom would still be bugging me in 2004, like, ‘You need to go to college, get a degree [and] get a real job.’ I was like, ‘No, mom, it’s cool. I’m in the van and getting baloney sandwiches on 100 bucks a night. I love it. And I’m 30!’

“But when we were in Rolling Stone for Leviathan and they were giving us accolades like, ‘There’s much more to these neanderthals than just sludge metal – they read books,’ it gave us some credibility. That really helped us stick out as not just another metal band.

“A song like Hearts Alive was also the gateway into the next record, Blood Mountain. It’s just an upward-and-onward thing. Looking back at Leviathan, that’s really where our career moved up a notch. It’s a defining moment in our history. The best-selling record it seems like, too.”

Beyond this trip, what are the next steps for either band?

Kelliher: “I’ve been writing a shit-ton. If I spend a day and write 10 riffs, maybe one of them is good, and that’s OK! It’s what puts me at peace and keeps me on track. So right now, we’re at the tip of the iceberg [for the next record] – laying all the riffs out, putting them to click tracks and arranging. We’re interviewing producers. We’re talking about collaborations with other people.”

Morton: “There’s nothing to announce at this point. Willie and I write a lot of riffs, and sometimes we’ll bounce stuff off each other to know what the vibe is.

Maybe this is a sign of things to come from Lamb of God and Mastodon, in terms of these paired-up album tours. Blood Sacrament has a nice ring to it, for instance. Maybe this is what you do together every couple of summers…”

Kelliher: “Hey, if it works… why not?”

• See Ashes of Leviathan Tour for dates and ticket details.